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Who are you going to vote for?

  • George W. Bush

    Votes: 23 41.8%
  • John Kerry

    Votes: 31 56.4%
  • Ralph Nader

    Votes: 1 1.8%

  • Total voters
    55
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i said:
This is from a fireman who serves in the Iowa National Guard and who is packing to go back to Iraq after a two week leave.

-Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.

-Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.

-Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that were stored there so education can occur.

-The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from ships faster.

-School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.

-Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.

-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.

-Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing t! he country.

-Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.

Blah blah blah blah

Boy, I wonder... where did an average fireman in the National Guard get all those neat and tidy facts about Iraq? My guess is that when the troops go on leave, they're handed a sheet that lists all those statistics so they can, in turn, tell their friends and family back home what they got accomplished.
I'm not saying they're false, and I agree the media does show more of the negative than the positive, but to throw out all those neat and tidy statistics makes your 'friend' sound like a Bush speechwriter, or Cheney speechwriter, or Rumsfeld speechwriter, or [Insert any Bush Administration Puppet] speechwriter.

But of course that can't be! Because he has been to Iraq and can verify that information because he has personally counted the number of Iraqi soldiers patrolling 'side by side' with him (that is, when they aren't being shot in the back of the head on the way home from training); I'm sure he counted every immunization that was given to every Iraqi child, because otherwise he'd just be repeating what was told to him by the Administration and his commanders.
But of couse that is ok because the commanders and higher-ups would never glaze over the bad parts of the war, or stretch the truth about their accomplishments... would they? Of course not, silly! And anyone who questions that is a liberal sheep and should be shot in the face by a newly-legalized assault rifle.

Silly liberals, patriotism is for republicans!
 
I think everyone can agree that Iraq is better off without Saddam, that is obvious.
Many Iraqi's are very happy, and some are not.
The issue is the way in which it was done, the cost, and the problems that have come from it.

Ksocia, your cat is sooooo cute! :clown:
 
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Thank you, I'll tell that to Olivia (the cat).

Today I had a chance to listen to the 'Savage Nation' hosted by Michael Savage on the radio. Now I'm sure some of our republican members have listened to it, but this was the first time for little old liberal ksocia... and all I can say is WOW...
No wonder some people can hate liberals and love Bush so much. The show basically revolved around two issues: 1. How Russia allegedly stole the WMD from Iraq right before the invasion and scurried them off to Lybia for safe keeping and 2. the recent tape released by the extreamists talking about how 'America will run red with blood, blah blah blah allah akbar.'

Savage's response to the tape was 'We should bomb all of the Arab capitals to teach the "godfathers of terror" a lesson, so they stop terrorism tomorrow.' He actually had people calling in and agreeing by saying 'Dr Savage, I agree that we should bomb all of the Middle East into a glass field.' Savage went so far as to say that 'sure, innocent people would die, but they wouldn't be the direct targets, so it would be ok.' Then he related it to WWII and Hitler and how some innocents had to die to get land back from the Nazi's.

This guy is Rush Limbaugh * 300, and anyone who believes everything he says is even WORSE than those who believe Michael Moore is 100% accurate. The show is crazy, man. It's like Jerry Springer, but with more republicans and white trash. Has anyone else ever listened to this?
 
iluvdeals said:
I think everyone can agree that Iraq is better off without Saddam, that is obvious.
Many Iraqi's are very happy, and some are not.
The issue is the way in which it was done, and the problems that have come from it.

Ksocia, your cat is sooooo cute! :clown:

Saddam was a bad guy but can you really say right now Iraq is better off? Saddam didn't seem to bomb them for no reason like we have. If they are so happy then why are they shooting at us?

I'll grant you there are many different ways they should / could have taken him out but the truth is he was no threat to us, the people of Iraq should have been thought of before this, a plan in place first rather then bombing them and it comes down to two things for Bush Oil & Saddam issues with Daddy. He is letting our people die for it and there is no reason. He duped us into getting behind him, I said yes to war and it turns out every reason he gave us was a lie no WMD's and no 9/11 connection.

The people of Iraq may one day be better with him gone, however the time frame is looking like the same as waiting Saddams natural life out anyway.

I support our troops for they are just doing their jobs.

Watch this from our VP (if it says not working at this time hit refresh)
 
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Cedar said:
I support our troops for they are just doing their jobs.

Watch this from our VP (if it says not working at this time hit refresh)

Vice President Dickey always looks like he is about to have a heart attack on video. LOL LOL LOL Is Dickey older than Mr. Burns from the Simpsons? :hmm:
 
i said:
-Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
In numerous cities, raw sewage runs down the street.

-Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.
Iraq was known for a good immunization program under Hussein.

-Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that were stored there so education can occur.
Numerous schools already are having complaints about poor renovations. Some actually report some paint is already peeling.

-The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from ships faster.
Oil pipelines are being blown up all the time.

-School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
Also, girl attendance at schools is low for fear of violence and kidnapping. In addition, the drop out rate is enormously high because the parents can't afford for their kids not to work.

-The country had it's first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
Oil exports have been extremely lower than expected. With plenty of violence disturbing exports.

-The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
Places like Fallujia has power virtually all day prior to the invasion. Now they only have it about 3 or 6 hours a day. In addition, electricity demands were not met, as the average time of having electricity per day was only 6 hours.

-100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35% before the war.
Doctors are fleeing the country because they are being kidnapped daily.

-Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are in place.
In many of these cities, American troops can't go anywhere near them for fear of violence.

-Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
These lines were already installed. We destroyed them. In addition, sewage is running down streets in some cities.

-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
About 1000 policemen have been killed since the force was created after the invasion.

-Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing t! he country.
Of this only 25,000 are combat trained. The majority of this 100,000 consists of policemen and border patrolmen, not combat trained people.

-Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
That number is highly exaggerated. They are also well under trained. 50 were slaughtered near the Iran border and another 11 were slaughtered yesterday.

-Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
Big whoop-de-do!

-Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
This isn't new.

-An interim constitution has been signed.
Elections can't be held in the country because of violence and the lack of control of many areas.

-Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.
As stated already, girl attendence in school is low because of fear of violence and kidnapping.

-Text books that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.
I wonder if they mention anything about evolution. :lol:

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there.
According to the CSIS, only 10% of Iraqis have faith in the US Army to quell the violence. The vast majority view Americans as occupiers. They are grateful for being free of Hussein, but they don't want us there anymore.

Ray Reynolds, SFC

Iowa Army National Guard

234th Signal Battalion
People shouldn't forward spam.
 
ksocia said:
This guy is Rush Limbaugh * 300, and anyone who believes everything he says is even WORSE than those who believe Michael Moore is 100% accurate. The show is crazy, man. It's like Jerry Springer, but with more republicans and white trash. Has anyone else ever listened to this?

Yea, good ol' Michael Savage. And he broadcasts from San Fransisco, that bastion of conservativism, I believe. KGO-AM Radio. I listened to him a few times but he's very negative and as you noticed, quite over-bearing. I don't find his conversation as stimulating as Eric Hogue or Michael Medved or Ollie North (who makes you excercise your brain to listen).

Anway, KGO, great station.

But Cedar, here we have this case that comes up so often of your facts versus my facts. You mentioned in an earlier post that people around the world Hate us. Ok, I just took care of this good friends car for a few weeks while he was down in Brazil (pronouced kinda like Braizoo). He grew up in Brazil and was going back down to visit and do some work in the prisons down there. I asked him when he got back what the people down there think of us, Americans. He said they love us. They think America is the greatest place on earth. They all want to come here.

And then as I mentioned in another post, Australians were supposed to give the boot to their Prime Minister, that pro-American lackey, to show their utter hatred of our policies and president. Now, can you tell me why they voted him back in? It couldn't be that, despite what some loud people are saying, some people in the world still like us? Some people still see America as the "Land of opportunity"? Or all they just poor decieved ingrates?
 
Music2myear, you are right. Many other countries love America. But, you may have missed one thing.
I was in Egypt over the summer, and when someone found out that I was American, they welcomed me with open arms. They told me how much they love America and wish to go to America. But... they would also tell me that they dislike Bush and we need to get him out.
 
It's our government policies that they hate, they might not hate us as in you or me as much as Bush's white house but what he does falls on the rest of us. Bush is the picture of the ugly American. I am embarrassed to call him our leader.
Go to Europe and see what they think of how Americans treat the rest of the world.

We lost whatever credibility and respect we had from other countries when we ignored them and went blindly into a war we should have never started.

How many people had to die, not just Americans so Jr. could bag Saddam for Daddy? We bombed these people for doing nothing and now we need someone that can make nice again so we can get some help rebuilding and getting out of Iraq.
 
music2myear said:
But Cedar, here we have this case that comes up so often of your facts versus my facts.
You mistake your bias and misinformation for facts.
 
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Happy Halloween enjoy the 2004 scariest costumes Do-It-Yourself Guide to This Season's Quickest, Least Expensive, and Spooky-Ookiest Halloween Costumes

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Jimmy Higgins said:
You mistake your bias and misinformation for facts.

The facts I quote are "bias and misinformation" and your facts are truly "facts." Quote me some recent studies, show me news articles from someone besides the "big 3 liars"; I want to know.
 
music2myear said:
The facts I quote are "bias and misinformation" and your facts are truly "facts." Quote me some recent studies, show me news articles from someone besides the "big 3 liars"; I want to know.

I doubt you really want to know, if you did you would have looked it up yourself. GO ahead read this and see what I mean they hate Bush and what he does falls down on the rest of us. Try reading foreign news along with independent news.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-08-14-1a-cover_x.htm
http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/extra/d0816eh.htm

Foreigners say over and over that it's George W. Bush they dislike, not all Americans. But what if Americans give Mr. Bush a second term as president on November 2? Will foreigners still say it's the man in the White House who is the problem, not the voters who put him there?

The U.S. presidential election is widely seen as too close to call, but one thing is clear: if the rest of the world could vote, Bush would lose in a landslide.

The most recent evidence came last week, when major newspapers in ten countries released the results of a series of coordinated opinion polls. Thousands of people in Japan, Great Britain, Israel, Mexico, Spain, Russia, South Korea, France, Canada, and Australia were asked their views about Bush, challenger John Kerry, the war in Iraq and the global role of the United States. By a 2-1 margin, foreigners opposed a second term for Bush. Only in two countries, Israel and Russia, did a majority of respondents favor Bush over Kerry.

Most foreign governments seem to share their citizens' desire for Bush's defeat, even if diplomatic constraints keep them from saying so publicly. "Even off the record, government officials will not tell you this," a spokesman for a major European nation told me in June, "and I am not telling you this now." But his mischievous smile left little doubt about his true feelings.

What is striking is how foreign governments and ordinary citizens alike invariably emphasize that their antipathy towards Bush does not extend to America, or Americans, at large.

"We like Americans, we don't like Bush," ran the headline in The Guardian newspaper of Great Britain. "Bush Is The Problem" explained the headline in South Korea's Joong Ang Ilbo newspaper.

The fact that foreigners make this distinction may comfort Americans, but it shouldn't be taken for granted. After all, in a democracy—and don't most Americans think we have the greatest democracy in the world?—the people are responsible for the government they elect.

Of course, one can argue that Americans didn't really elect Bush the first time. Al Gore won the popular vote in 2000 by half a million votes, but Bush ended up as president with help from his brother, the governor of Florida, and a Republican-dominated Supreme Court.

But whatever the absurdities of the Electoral College that governs U.S. presidential elections, the rules are the rules, everyone knows them and each side has had plenty of time to get ready for this year's showdown.

If Bush does win on November 2, Americans will in effect be saying to the world that we endorse his bellicose, high-handed, unilateralist approach to international affairs. In that event, why should foreigners keep drawing a distinction between an American president they deplore and the American population that gave him four more years in power?
 
Cedar said:
Of course, one can argue that Americans didn't really elect Bush the first time. Al Gore won the popular vote in 2000 by half a million votes, but Bush ended up as president with help from his brother, the governor of Florida, and a Republican-dominated Supreme Court.

Wow, good post. That's some data I can mull over. But anyways, about that bit above. Did you know that Abraham Lincoln wasn't elected with a majority of the popular vote? Oh, and neither did that great leader of yester-decade, Bill Clinton. Nor did Harry Truman (the Dewey Upset), Woodrow Wilson (the only world leader who proposed helping Germany rebuild after WWI, which would most likely have prevented the rampant depression and power vaccum into which Hitler stepped a few years later), John F Kennedy (very popular president, no argument there), and eight others (I'm not sure, but I believe Jefferson was one of the eight, very messy election that year).

Further, Bush won 30 states. That means the majority in 30 states (a majority of the states for those who don't remember how many states we have or who aren't good at math). Gore won 20 states and DC. Gore's states were more populated that's true, but he won less of them.

I'm not sure what they teach in civics nowadays, but America isn't a pure democracy. A Democracy is great except for one thing, it denies the problem of mankinds natural tendency to act in a selfish manner. A pure democracy would have had one body of government with everybody having a chance to have their voice heard. America was created a Democratic Republic, where each governing body had an equally strong opposing body, each specializing in a particular facet of the government and together creating a stress between them which prevented the majority from oppressing the weak and the vocal minority from leading the rest.

So it is with our Electoral College. If we were a pure Democracy, the President would be elected by popular vote. Where would the candidates spend their entire time campaigning? In the populated areas. If there were no electoral college, the elections could be decided by a distinct minority of the states. As it is, the Electoral College forces the candidates to spend money and time and words and thoughts and policies on most every state, unless of course they don't really want to win.

Call it stupidity by senile old men we call our Founding Fathers, or call it a stroke of brilliance that secures our freedom from oppression, I'm ready to put up with the occasional "unpopular president" to make sure I still have freedom.
 
music2myear said:
Did you know that Abraham Lincoln wasn't elected with a majority of the popular vote? Oh, and neither did that great leader of yester-decade, Bill Clinton. Nor did Harry Truman,... Woodrow Wilson,... [and] John F Kennedy

True, those presidents may not have had more than 50% of the popular vote, but they had the most votes cast for them (Source), therefore more people wanted that candidate in office. Had Florida's electoral votes been divided evenly in the case of a tie, and it was a tie (500+/- votes is well within the error margin of counting/ballot mistakes and mishaps), it would have been a different story, but since all of the votes went to Bush based on a flimsy majority, the Supreme Court basically overruled half of the voters in Florida. I think we should modify the electoral college so that it works closer to what Maine does, a certain number of electoral votes goes to the majority winner of the state, while a certain number are divided based on the % support of each candidate. That way, each state would more accurately represent the popular vote (by splitting votes between candidates), while still allowing each state to cast a few electoral votes towards the winner of the state.

Good luck to both candidates tomorrow, and let's hope for our sake that there is a clear winner either way, and it doesn't end up in the courts for years.
 
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